RIF Expert Panel: Blockchain Wallets

26 March, 2021

RIF recently hosted an expert panel discussion on Blockchain Wallets. Below is the transcript of the event.

Panelists: Co-Founder Defiant Bruno Calmels, Vice President IoTrust, D’CENT Wallet WK Kim, Co-Founder Liquality Simon Lapscher.

Moderator: Rootstock Co-Founder Gabriel KurmanGabriel Kurman

Gabriel: Hello, Hello, to everyone today, super exited that we have another amazing panel of experts and today we are going to be talking about wallets. Which are key elements on the ecosystem, its sometimes the first thing that users encounter when they get in contact with the crypto and blockchain technology. And we as an ecosystem depend on this amazing tool for users to onboard with it, and welcome to the ecosystem. So we have three amazing references in this area today, three great wallets that are growing significantly and we are going to learn a lot from that experience and hopefully you’re going to be able to tell us where the whole ecosystem of wallets is going. So to start, I would like to ask you to do a quick introduction of yourselves and explain the audience like what are the main characteristics of your wallets and why your wallet is special. So Simon, would you like to start and welcome to the panel.

Simon: Thank you Gabriel, appreciate it and super happy to be here. Its good to see Bruno and Kim as well, yeah so my Simon Lapscher or Simon, I am the co-founder of Liquality, and we are a cross-chain liquidity network with a multichain wallet, and so we released in September the first version of our wallets in September of 2020. Which is a Chrome browser extension that allows you to hold multiple tokens on multiple different chains so you can have Bitcoin, you can have Etherium, ERC20, you can also have RSK and we are integrating more. And basically the biggest differentiation is that we have built in cross-chain atomic swaps that we standardized and created ourselves, and so you can do one click, and exchange between chains. And because of that, we have also built a transaction automation capability inside the wallet. So you can have complex transaction workflows that go between chains in one click. And so that’s where we are today, we have grown significantly since starting in September so we have 4000 weekly active users now and have been increasing our growth every month since.

Gabriel: Well, congratulations. It’s super important this cross chain swaps that you where mentioning because this is what makes the ecosystem anti-fragile. When you connect every single blockchain and make it super seamless and easy to the users and also happy to see how many projects have been entering to exist, or been born from the pandemic no? Everybody was inside, it seems things were not happening and actually after a couple of months, this amazing projects where born for the ecosystem. Congratulations Simon. Kim, would you like to tell us something about what makes the DCENT wallet so special?

WK: Yeah sure, Simon and Bruno nice to meet you. This is WK, I am working in D‘CENT, I am the vice president at D’CENT biometric wallet and in charge for the sales and marketing. And this year is our fourth year to join, or to participate as a hardware wallet and I am very proud to inform that we are the first hardware wallet with a biometric authentication and that was probably two or three years ago that we met Gabriel as well as RSK in Korea and there was the beginning of the discussion that we build a partnership. And we are offering 3 different types of hardware wallet. First one is a biometric which is our flagship type, second one is a hard type wallet, followed by the app wallet. And we are actively selling and many customers are approaching us because of the biometric as well as the multi-chain support through the one single hardware wallet. And I’m very pleased to be part of the panel discussion and very excited.

Gabriel: Thank you so much, WK. Something that I still remember that blew my mind when we met several years ago is that, in RSK we are always pushing for massive options and trying to take blockchain technology to those who are less favorite for the traditional legacy system. And all hardware wallets required a computer, you had to have a computer to connect your hardware wallet. And what the D’CENT team did was a hardware wallet that interacts with your mobile wallet. So for you know people in Latin America, in Africa, they can connect to blockchain technology with Crypto through their mobile phones. They are forced to be with a hood wallet, and that is exactly what D’CENT is tackling, is enabling hardware wallets with mobile devices. So it was super revolutionary and happy to see that you are still leading the innovation on that front so congratulations WK. Uh, Bruno, tell us about Defiant.

Bruno: Thanks Gaku, saying it’s a pleasure to meet you, well to meet you again Simon and to get to know you Kim. And so yah, Defiant was born round the first quarter of last year, and we were born as a peer to peer marketplace, and then we became also a wallet, in part due to a really nice collaboration with RSK which started by having tighter relationship with this amazing project, thanks for the invitation by the way. And so well, now Defiant is a multichain self-custodial mobile wallet. Its available for both Android and IOS, and beyond the multichain wallet and the peer to peer marketplace, some interesting features which we have been working a lot and putting our efforts on are good and really comfortable for the user, ways of ‘on ramp’ or ‘off ramp’ that is to buy and sell crypto fiat. And also the idea is that the user goes to Defiant, installs Defiant as their first crypto wallet. We try to be really user friendly, we try to polish all the rough edges in order for the user to have the best experience, we are growing really nicely and so we are really happy and being part of this great ecosystem.

Gabriel: Thank you so much Bruno, what you just mentioned is also super important no? Especially in countries such as Argentina or Venezuela were the system is on the verge of collapse, and really peer to peer transaction and ‘on ramp’ from the legacy system into crypto are so critical, so it’s great that you guys are so focused on this. This leads to my next question that I would like to start with; Simon, Wallets are kind of the ambassadors of the ecosystem right? Every time that we invite new people or someone reads about bitcoins in the newspaper and they want to get in touch, the first thing that they encounter, the complexity or simplicity of crypto wallets. So what do you guys think are the key elements that you take into account when thinking in that user journey, especially for those non-technical users that are new to the space?

Simon: Yah I think it’s important to know the user really well, and to be able to start with- we start with the power users of crypto and then expand on to that as our technology allows us to have more and more simplicity, so for example our wallet we launched in September but we had a cross chain swaps application for more than a year, and that was made for very advanced users that would use their hardware wallets, their ledger, they knew how to custody their keys really well, and then we expanded and abstracted away a lot of that complexity into what is now the Liquality wallet. And so I think it comes down to how much complexity can you abstract while also providing enough information and education, there is a lot of education involved in bringing in new people. Liquality for example all we are doing is non-custodial, so it’s really a behavior shift, of all my money is in a bank, and it’s there, vs this is mine, and I’m completely responsible for what happens to this, and how do I store seed phrases right? So we are still very early in the non-custodial space, there are some solutions like the smart contract wallets that let you do social recovery but I think there is still a lot of education needed on what is really the responsibility of something that is non-custodial, and what are the benefits that come from that and that’s why we or I got into this space in the first place. So there is a lot of education, there is a lot of communication, we’ve had to put a lot of emphasis in kinda the non-happy paths of the wallets or when errors get made, how do you communicate those errors to the users, and guide them back towards the flow that you want them too. There is also a lot of support involved, so we had to have our support infrastructure to make sure there is someone available there for a user if they have any questions at all times. And so finding that balance between a lot of information and abstracting away the complexity has been really key for us, especially as we are a very technical project, like we came from cross chain atomic swaps which are kind of one of the most technical aspects off the project.

Gabriel: Yeah so this is key, making the complexity simple for the user. Uh, WK how this apply to the D’CENT Wallet and do you see any difference between the users in Korea, in Asia, and Latin America and the rest of the world? Because your project started in Korea and has now become more global, how do you guys approach this first interaction with new users?

WK: Luckily we are based in Korea, well known as the IT advanced country, and I think that the entry barrier for using those kind of mobile based services are quite low, which is a very good factor for us. But the bottom line is the main user for our hardware wallet, regardless whether you have a tons of experience and knows lots of services of the blockchain, they are looking for the hardware wallet that makes sure that your asset is privately and securely manage. So what we are trying to do is the security is the most important area that we cannot compromise. But at the same time, there are very thin lines between the security as far as the convenience and we are trying to offer sort of the very good user experience. For example if there is a very good services, you know you can just add or you can have access by just a few clicks. You should not do any kind of technical job to get reach, or to reach those kind of services. So I think from the hardware wallet perspective to get more users, you need to offer security as well as a user experience.

Gabriel: Perfect, very interesting. Thanks, how about you Bruno, how are you serving those new users? That in the case of Defiant you can confirm, but I think many of them it’s a first time they are having interactions with blockchain and bitcoin technology.

Bruno: Yah that’s true, that’s true. A large part of our users are really new comers to the space, so as both WK and Simon said, it’s really important to give them a really, really friendly and user convenient experience. So that’s of course one of our focuses. And also having to letting them understand what’s happening, being really communicative to the user, that’s really important, and that balance between security and usability or convenience that Kim was mentioning is really important. It’s something that you have to bear in mind almost every day. And the question is always “how much do I communicate in terms of all the technical details”? This to the user, how much do I try not to hide, but to put a bit of make up on it, in order for the user to understand it a bit better. And also it’s a task, it’s an everyday task to inform and to communicate to the user. So we are trying to also build a lot of- we had to built the support infrastructure, to bring people on board to help us answering all the questions that maybe are repetitive sometimes, but the newcomers are always having the same kind of questions. Also writing block-posts and lots of other tasks that may not be too technical, but at the end of the day make the real difference to the user.

Gabriel: Awesome-

Bruno: and also of course, having to choose the features that you are going to integrate to the product, with the user that you know is your user target- I guess that we will be speaking forward bout this, but as there are so many solutions in the ecosystem, you have to choose the ones that fit your users the best in order to offer to them.

Simon: Yes and I would add that when Bruno you were saying there is a lot of repeated questions and because everyone is coming new, I think an important part of that is having a good community, and that is something that we have been trying to develop now in Liquality. Because once you have that buy in from the community, essentially you start seeing that support is also done by community members. And so there is a lot of questions that come up, and there is a lot of people who have gone through it, and so the users are helping other users bringing them on board, and right now it’s pretty impressive to see and I think it’s going to continue to be that case as we continue to grow the community.

Gabriel: Awesome, and something that I really like is too see this three amazing wallets, where the three of you have tackled a different problem, so Simon his project is more focused on liquidity and cross chain swaps. Kim is more focused on security and hardware wallets. And Bruno is more into making it super easier for new comers and massive option. So it’s great to see the different wallets complement themselves-

Simon: and three different- basically foreign factors as well, because Bruno is a mobile app, Defiant is a mobile app, D’CENT is a hardware wallet and ours is a Chrome extension.

Gabriel: Yah, absolutely. So we are in a very unique moment. The market is soaring, we are days away from our last all time high and I’m sure that all your products are growing exponentially as the rest of the ecosystem is doing. What kind of signs are you seeing from this growth, is there something that you can share with the audience, are you seeing more in growth in the number of new users, its more the funds that every single user is custodian or having in their wallets… how are you dealing with this level of growth, Simon do you want to start?

Simon: Yah, yah, I think I mentioned this before but in February was our best month yet, so our users weekly active grew by 75%, which is amazing to see, and our swap volumes grew 100% and so also incredible. And a good part of that is coming from the RSK community, because you know it’s been such a good fit and so I think that because we are a cross chain wallet I think every new chain we enable we allow a new community to come in an kind of like be a part of the rest of the chains and be kinda unified. And so we have seen really a growth in both users and volumes, also that comes with growth in community, that comes with growth in support tickets of course, and we don’t know if volumes- we know the swap volumes, but we don’t know how much volume- essentially funds people hold in their wallets because we are very private focused, so we actually we don’t know anything that is going on inside the wallets and we made it purposely so, and so we know people are coming in, we know they are actively using it, but we don’t know what is actively happening inside other than we can see when people are swapping. And so yah it’s been amazing and I think that the trajectory will continue for a good while.

Gabriel: Thanks, very important what you mentioned about not knowing the amount of funds and privacy concerns, I can tell you that the feedback of the RSK community on Liquality is amazing, as you all know, RSK uses bitcoin as a native currency, and the connection between the RSK blockchain and the bitcoin one- if you go through two way peg, its fully technical and very complex for most users in the world. And actually Liquality actually played a key role in making this cross chain swap super simple and easy for users, so thanks Liquality team for that and congratulations. Kim, are you seeing this kind of exponential growth along with the rest of the ecosystem as well, and how are you dealing with this amount of growth.

WK: Ah so yes, I am really, really hoping that the rest of the whole year is going to be like February, like March timeframe. For all the price, for Etherium, Bitcoins, and other altcoins, and the market is really getting hard, and I can say that the majority of the Korean customers, when they needed Hardware wallets, the first one they think about is the D’CENT wallet because my competitor, the French company cannot support any local language, so that was a very big plus. And what we learned from the local market is that you need to have a very good partnership with a key platform player. Because we do have platform giant called KakaoTalk, and they launched crypto currency as well as a blockchain services. And we were first hardware wallet that integrated those blockchain networks, and I am really looking forward to build those kind of success story in the other reason, especially for the Latin America as well as South America because through the RSK, that’s why we are closely communicating and we are actively willing to put more extra steps to support whatever the service that you are required. And coming back to the “our” reality, we could say that MAU as well as the DAU has been tripled, compared with the last year same timeframe. So it’s a really good month, and hoping that this will last until few months or few years.

Gabriel: Absolutely and also something that happens every time you know the crypto space soars in price is that people get concerned about security so, yah know getting into hard wallets is a great practice that we encourage everyone from the audience to use to protect their funds. Bruno, can you tell us about the growth in recent months in Defiant.

Bruno: Sure, actually, since we’ve launched last year, we’ve been seeing a growth in our user counts monthly and constantly. So we are all almost use to it, it never surprises us but it’s something that really good you know. Every time we think about it, yah we are having more and more users every week and every month. So in that department we are really safe. And about us, yah this growth in user awareness and also I think that having to do with the price of bitcoin and ether, we are receiving more people interested in investing in us. We announced some time ago that we were converting our pre-seed round and also we are already starting to think about series A, and yah we are seeing a lot of growth in many sides. Also of course, other projects that approach us in terms of with the perspective of doing some kind of connection with Defiant for offering their services or their apps or platforms, so that’s also a good sign. And yah, we are also about to launch on and off ramp services for some more particular Latin American countries and also solutions for all the globe so we expect seeing more new users in the coming weeks and months also.

Gabriel: Awesome, so happy for the three of you guys. Now there is a level of innovation, of new products and solutions happening. There is DeFi platforms, NFTs, and you know there is a lot of hype around that but the technology behind you know that hype, is quite interesting. So how are you coping with the rate of innovation in the space, and how do you decide which technology is mature enough to be integrated into your wallet. Simon, how do you deal with it?

Simon: That’s the hardest part of all this I think, prioritization. In general, in building a product, I think that is always the hardest part is you have the whole world and what do you choose to build or not to build, or to integrate or not to integrate. And so for us it’s a combination of you know we’ve been as a team in this space since 2017, so the wallet is new but the team has been in this space since 2017, so we have a good grasp of how to determine what is mature and what isn’t, and how to determine real usage. And the good thing about blockchain is that everything is transparent, and so you can really see, what has traction and what doesn’t. There is no hiding, you can’t lie about how much on chain volume some protocol is doing, and so for us it’s a combination of our understanding with on chain metrics and trying to figure out where the traction for different things are and different chains. And as well as where our users are asking us to be. And so we have a really good connection and communication with our user base, we prioritize features based on their demand. And so I think it’s impossible to keep up with the innovation but basically we have a niche of cross chain trustless applications right, so basically we do cross chain really well, and we do the exchange between those chains trustless really well and so that’s basically were we have found our success, and I think if we continue to grow from that outwards, then we will continue to do that as well as kind of figuring out which chains to prioritize. And that is in itself tricky because there is a lot of- because every blockchain has their own community, and some communities are louder than others, sometimes it is hard to distinguish between the noise and the signal, and so talking to those chain teams, understanding what is- meeting with them and their technical team to understand what is ready, what is not, how real is their infrastructure, how many projects do they have on main net… and yah. That’s more of less- it’s a balance of many different things, and trying to grow from what we know we do well.

Gabriel: Thanks Simon. WK, how do you deal with this amount of innovation and hype and how do you differentiate and know what to integrate into D’CENT.

WK: Because I am looking at it from the two different perspective, because first one is D’CENT hardware wallet support the multichains, so it is very challenging for us to monitor, market, and collect the market feedback. So what we are doing is based on what we have, our customers are asking to support services, or blockchain, and that is the first input that we are getting from our market based on what we are doing from our customers. At the same time we have to engage with the new player, because D’CENT has to be listed as one of the few or first hardware wallets to support certain services as was in blockchain, and what we are trying to do is, trying to build the relationship with the blockchain so called the leader, including the RSK. And we are getting the recommendation from those blockchain player, and trying to reflect it into our services as well as the market, so that is the- one of the effective ways to bring out the solution to the market with short time frame.

Gabriel: Very interesting, thank you. Bruno?

Bruno: Well as Simon said, it’s probably the hardest part to prioritize the features we integrate into our product, and in a particular case, we’ve got plenty of users, mainly the users that have been using Defiant since the early stages, that are not really new comers. So probably when you hear what they want they will tell you, a bit more advanced features, which we also try to integrate but we know and we have decided, and it’s our view, I told you before we are trying to make the crypto space really, really accessible. So we are always trying to make everyone happy, so we may be integrating some more advanced features, but we are also trying to give a special eye and special attention to all the solutions that make the life easier for the user, to get on board. To get on the crypto space, and to really find really interesting and useful use for their crypto. So that is what drives us along the path. And also lucky for us for instance we have integrated in a particular case, wallet connect, which pretty much solves the connection between the mobile wallet and all the universe of apps that are out there. Because for instance for the users of defiant may know that they are already used to connect and use my own chain platform through Defiant which is natively integrated, so it’s a really nice experience to use my own chain. But we cannot do that with every app or platform that appears in the Defi world because we know that every week has its own main character and new player. So with what we connect with pretty much solved that part, with defiant you can interact with plenty of apps and well… about the integrations that are already integrated in into defiant trying to do it every time more usable and easier for our user.

Gabriel: It’s a very thin line, we would like to add as much technology as we can but also we want to keep it very simple for the users. So it’s a thin balance.

Simon: Can I add something there?

Gabriel: Yah. Absolutely.

Simon: I think we have started to make that shift, so I think for a mobile wallet it makes sense to have wallet connect integrated so that you can interact with apps. For us which we are a browser extension essentially what we are starting to do, is we are starting to come up with a integration framework so kinda like a plug in mechanism. So that everybody can build their own plug in, and integrate it into the wallet, and so allowing kinda like developers come into Liquality and develop their own transaction workflow for their own apps if they want too and have that integrated into the wallet. And we are also doing that with chain teams right? So new blockchains, some of the work were doing ourselves to integrate new blockchains, but for example the RSK integration was driven by the RSK team who approached us and we worked together to do that. So automating that experience so that we don’t really have to be a part of it, it kind of removes the limit from what we can do and puts a limit on how many developers can we bring to build on top of Liquality and have our users choose which are the plug ins and integrations that they like more essentially.

Gabriel: Absolutely and you know what the Chrome extension could be quite interesting to be integrated into Taringa!, we have 12 million active users in the Taringa! community which now they are getting into blockchain technology through the Taringa! crypto economy and the RIF services. And it would be great because when you are navigating a website through a chrome plug in that has blockchain technology enabled as a wallet, that’s the user using just- navigating the internet but with super powers. That would be something interesting to explore. Now there is another major issue/problem that we are seeing across the space, especially across the Etherium ecosystem which is the high fees. Many use cases and many users that have been- especially in Latin America and Africa, that have been using stable coins for their daily payments, now cannot deal- use the technology anymore because of the Etherium fees, and that’s actually creating a lot opportunities for other blockchains or solutions that are cheaper. But in terms of wallets, it seems to be to different kind of wallets. You have the on chain wallets and the off chain wallets. Those who deal with the Lumino or Lightning network, and those who are fully on chain. Do you see a trend of everything getting blend in? Are your wallets planning on integrating off chain solutions? Do you expect the other off chain wallets to also become more active in the on chain space? How do you see this trend going forward Simon? Do you want to start?

Simon: Yah it’s a real problem, fees are killing the usability for non “whales” we call them, people who have a lot of money and can spend a hundred dollars for a smart contract transaction but everybody else is left out of the game. So we do see a lot of apps and projects going to layer 2 and there is a fragmentation of layer 2 solutions and so yah- I mean what we do at Liquality is we built everything on what is called the chain abstraction layer, so it’s essentially a plug in play, open source protocol. Where you built integration into one chain and that- because it’s built into that protocol it can talk to all the other chains. And so we will treat layer 2s as another chain essentially, because that is what they are, either they are side chains or role ups, but essentially they act as their own ecosystem that requires on and off boarding. And so we will provide all of basically- slowly but surely we will prioritize the ones that the market seems to be adopting, and allow for layer 1 to layer 2 on and off boarding but also layer 2 to layer 2 directly. So I think it’s really as wallets, we are kind of like you said the ambassadors, we are the gateway to the ecosystem, it’s almost like it’s not our job to choose, its more our job to give optionality to the user and let them go were ever they want to go. And so that’s how I see it and it’s our job to make that, because that in itself is very complicated, to make that as simple as possible. So not knowing our vision for Liquality is that the user shouldn’t know which chain you are interacting with, you should only know you are going to this app to use it for a very specific reason, and so we hide all of that complexity. We might do like a cross chain transaction or cross chain swap behind the scenes, so to get you on board and into that layer 2, which is a different layer 2 than this other application that you are using. And it’s our job to hide away all of that complexity as much as possible.

Gabriel: Absolutely, hiding the complexity is the holy grail. That’s why on Riff we launched enveloping, so users can also pay on chain fees directly with the token they are dealing with, trying to make as seamless as possible. WK, does off-chain payments make sense for hardware wallets? Or you guys are more focused on high volume, large transactions and your users do not care that much about high fees? How are you approaching this?

WK: I mean surprisingly you know whether how much asset that you are holding at a certain wallet they are extremely sensitive about the gas fee when they make any transaction. And based on this I think this is the hurdle that the Etherium foundation has to come over. Because this could let us- other for the chain, introduce those kind of defy services with the low gas fee. And as you know the Binance smart chain is one of the hardest for the chain for the Defi industry, and what we believe is you- I mean bitcoin as well as RSK has a potential to be like one of the leading player if the gas fee issue is solved. And to answer your question between the off chain as well as the on chain, for me is quite hard to decide what to choose, which wallet is going to lead the whole industry, but I do have a very strong confidence that each blockchain user will have a hardware wallet or a software wallet to use the services. And I like to see which portion is leading the whole industry, but for me is a bit early to decide that off chain or on chain, which one is better.

Gabriel: Ok perfect. Bruno do you have any plans to integrate any off chain technologies into Defiant?

Bruno: yah sure, of course our users which are now- most of them are not whales as Simon said, they are really, really concerned about the fees and so of course we will integrate all the possible and most mature solutions. And put them available for them and of course we will try to hide all the complexities that sale. I think that we will be lucky enough as a community to have some standards that are already being developed in order to make it very, very feasible, this integration and hiding all the complexities and making it possible for the user to be able to connect to many solutions that are already being developed and are already available out there. And, but of course I’d say that we will probably choose as we believe ourselves to be an opinionated wallet, we will probably choose to offer some of them more transparently to the user and just to add- up to the point that in which they will probably not know that they are using a layer 2 or off chain solution. But yah, for sure, in order to answer the question, we will try to solve the fees problem for the users by using some of these technologies.

Gabriel: Perfect, thanks. Ok we arriving towards the end of the panel, I would like to ask you a final question, you guys are in the forefront of this industry so probably you have more insight than anybody else about where are we going as an industry and ecosystem. So, let’s think 12 months from now, in 1 year, what do you think are going to be the trends- and I know it’s very difficult right? But just based on the information that you have, would things are starting to grow, and you are expecting to grow significantly in the next year? What things do you believe are with too much hype now and you expect to fade away? And also what do you think bitcoin and crypto currencies will affect and what role they will have in the world in a year, now that everything seems to be moving so fast? Simon any thoughts on the short-term future of this industry?

Simon: Yah I think that the main one is the expansion of cross chains, of a multichain world, I really do- we’ve been at this like I said since 2018, thinking cross chain and now its when we are really starting to see it come to life. And with Polkadot going on main net I think that will trigger just a boom in really the cross chain interoperability, and so whatever really nails that experience for the user of not really caring that the user doesn’t really care… where which chain they are interacting with, they just want to use the product, and have use superior products. That you know, that wallet will win a significant amount of users. I think that layer 2s are finally going to start being real, as so the majority of the usage is actually probably by- I don’t if a year from now, but probably 1 to 2, the majority of the usages is going to happen at layer 2 cheap transactions, and in the background, the apps will probably be settling to layer 1s. I think that is mostly true for the apps, for bitcoin, I think it’s interesting because bitcoin layer 1 actually solves a very specific problem which is a store of value and settlement mechanism. So I don’t think that changes to layer 2, I think there will be use cases for layer 2 for RSK, for Lightning, of different usages like finance applications being built on top of that, but the layer 1 bitcoin actually serves a really good use case and high fees are not that important when you are doing store of value. And so I think-

Gabriel: Especially when the central banks start using it, that’s when the fees are going to go up.

Simon: Hahaha, yah, exactly. I don’t think that’s going to happen within a year. Or at least not in a mainstream way. I think with anything we are living inside a multichain generational change, and a year is too small of a timeframe to really think about these things change. And yah within the past year we saw a lot more adoption of mainstream of corporate treasuries buying bitcoins, you know Elon Musk buying bitcoin for Tesla, and its impressive, but it’s never- there is not such thing as immediate hyper-bitcoinization right? It’s a process, that takes time and I think the more we can- again, faster, secure, simpler, usability applications that abstract away the complexity the more we will get there. But it’s a process for the long term.

Gabriel: Thank you Simon, and just a final comment, where can people download Liquality and how can they experiment it?

Simon: Yah go to Liquality.IO that’s our website, you can download the wallet from there, it’s a chrome extension. You can also join our telegram community and ask any questions and reach out to me directly if you have any questions up here.

Gabriel: Thank you Simon. WK where do you see the ecosystem in a year, what trends are you most exited about?

WK: Ok I am very optimistic about the ecosystem as well as the blockchain industry. And ok when it comes with this price of course it will definitely go up, and I think that is going to be a very good factor. But at the same we need to have more customers. We need to have market input, and to do that we need to have some sort of killer application. And which they can give a fund to- for newcomers. And one of the things we are looking at is NFT, and I think this is going to be one of the hardest topics throughout the whole year. At the same time, probably the meta version is going to be another good application where we can bring new users into the blockchain industry because that is the area that they can use or they can utilize the crypto currency as well as NFT as well. So, it’s going to be quite exiting year, and I am really ready for that.

Gabriel: Awesome and how can people get in touch, buy the hardware wallet for D’CENT is it online? Can they download the wallet even if they don’t have the hardware wallet as well?

WK: Yes, they can just download the D’CENT mobile app, through the google play and iphone which is free of charge, and they can purchase the hardware wallet through the various store in amazon, including our own online mode which is dcentwallet.com and you can just drop us any question just by clicking the simple green button on the bottom of the screen.

Gabriel: Perfect. Thank you so much. Bruno how about you, what do you expect in the next twelve months?

Bruno: well for me the next twelve months will be only NFTs… nah that’s a joke. Just that it’s the topic of fire. No I agree with Kim and Simon, I see more institutional money incoming, into the blockchain. And also growth in users and also in not only people really using and buying for hodling, but also stores that begin to accept bitcoin or other coins for payments. And so yah, I see a steady growth for usage for this year, but also we are really interested in some specific cases of some bases we’ve been talking a lot with you Gaku about this but there are some certain countries where there may be some opportunity to grow a bit more than in the rest of the world. Like for instance in Argentina we’ve perceived that we have a really, really good opportunity here for blockchain to be- I don’t know if really, really make it into the mainstream, but for users to multiply I don’t know, ten times I may say, this year or five times. Also Venezuela is another case, we’ve got another couple of countries in Latin America that we are perceiving as an opportunity for this, and also other countries across the world. So we have a special, special interest in those countries and the possibilities that may appear for the use of blockchain technologies.

Gabriel: Yah that is super important and very close to my heart because those countries that you just mentioned are the ones that are suffering the most because of their economic situation, and that is where blockchain technology and crypto can play a key role to help people. So, and sadly, more and more countries are going in that direction, we have Venezuela, Argentina, Nigeria, Lebanon… we have this kind of situation even before the pandemic, and now it’s just gone worse, so I think it’s great for the world, that we have this technology at our service, and amazing wallets such as yours, to serve those users, and to give them opportunity to protect themselves from inflation, from confiscation of their savings, and be able to protect their own wealth on super secure technologies such as the ones you are building. Where can people download Defiant Bruno? Or learn more about the project?

Bruno: Just go to our website, its defiantapp.tech, and there you got the links for the store, to our telegram groups, our twitter. We are building it up but it’s already there, our blog, with lots of interesting posts for users, and that’s a good starting point.

Gabriel: Well thank you so much for your time, thanks for sharing this amazing insight from the industry, best of luck for all of you, keep on growing at this pace, keep it up, and talk to you very soon, thank you so much for your time.

WK, Bruno, Simon: Thank you.

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